RAY SUAREZ: By referring to it as ethnic cleansing, and there's been widespread condemnation around the world of what's going on in Darfur, a lot of people have been careful not to use the word genocide. Why? ANDREW NATSIOS: Well, there is an international convention from 1948 on genocide, and what it means or does not mean is something that experts have to review. And in fact, there is a review going on right now of whether or not, from the U.S. government's perspective, this is taking place or not. The review is not completed, but it is taking place at a very high level. RAY SUAREZ: Dr. Leaning, does it meet your definition? JENNIFER LEANING: We struggled with this as an organization, as a board, and as team members going out to look at what we could find. And we think that people of goodwill who have their eyes open are all acknowledging that this is a targeted, systematic, mass killing of an identifiable group. What we have concluded based on looking at a lot of evidence from other excellent groups, including U.S. government, and from our own survivor testimonies that we got in the field, we've concluded that we should call this an unfolding genocide, that if we look at the terms of the convention it includes, as the definition, the attempt to destroy in whole or in part a people on the basis of, and there are four categories of basis. The non-Arab Darfurians are very distinct in terms of their language, their lifestyle, their culture from the Arab populations that are attacking them. And everything we can see in terms of destruction of life and livelihood and claims to the land and capacity to stay there, and attempts to drive them thoroughly from the region, would suggest that we are looking at a genocide in action, and that we think it's important to try to operationalize the term of genocide. It's an extraordinarily weighty and important legal term. We think it's important to try to operationalize it in an early warning mode so that there is an alert that goes out to the great powers to say, do something, intervene, and bring this to a stop, which basically requires a fair amount of pressure on the government of Sudan . RAY SUAREZ: Andrew Natsios, however the internal review comes out on the legal definition of genocide, are you, in effect, working against the government in Khartoum to bring aid to the people of Darfur? ANDREW NATSIOS: In March of this year, several months ago, President Bush sent Jack Danforth and I to the Nabacha (ph) peace talks. And while Sen. Danforth was there on the North-South agreement, he sent, President Bush, sent me to deliver the message that there will be no peace dividend, and there will be no normalization of relations with the Sudanese government while these atrocities are continuing in Darfur and while there is a stonewalling of the effort to provide humanitarian assistance and prevent famine. You see, whether you call it a genocide or not, the issue is that we have not yet lost 300,000 or 400,000 people. We will lose that many people this fall if we do not run this relief effort without any restrictions by the government of Sudan and without Janjaweed attacks, we could have as many as a million people die by the end of this calendar year. We carefully calculated this using epidemiological data - we're entering, for example, the meningitis season right now. We just found one instance of polio. We could have a polio epidemic. Malaria will start because of the rains. And there are already epidemics of measles in some of the camps, which will kill a lot of children under five. So the worst is yet to come. The worst will start in September to December when we'll have a massive loss of life. What we could do is dramatically drop the number of people who are dying. President Bush has called President Bashir several times now over the last couple of months, and warned him that there will be no normalization of relations with the Sudanese-- which the Sudanese government want very badly with us; they want normal relations with the outside world -- while these atrocities continue. Secretary Powell has spoken to Vice President Taha. I've spoken to the foreign minister delivering exactly the same message. We've organized with our European allies and with the Japanese and the Canadians an international aid effort. I'm in weekly contact with Jan Egeland, the head of the U.N. OCHA Office. I just spent a couple of days with Carol Bellamy, the head of UNICEF, and Mark Malloch Brown, the head of UNDP. We need to make this an integrated international effort to stop this tragedy before it gets completely out of hand. Secretary Powell's upcoming trip to Sudan
RAY SUAREZ: Well, Doctor, Mr. Natsios mentioned Secretary Powell. He announced he's heading to the region. Does it help your work if more Americans know the name Darfur? JENNIFER LEANING: Absolutely. It's splendid that he's going. It's a difficult trip. It's a remote part of Sudan which in itself is, you know, not on the beaten track. Our hope, in addition to the very symbolic and political power that his presence will bring, our hope is that he will demand, insist upon getting access to populations in Darfur that have not yet been seen. The risk here is that the Sudanese government is going to really block his movement the way it's trying to block the humanitarians and other senior government officials have gone from the United States. So one of the hopes we would have is he essentially, that is Secretary of State Powell, is quite vigorous about what he insists upon, and that he says publicly, if in fact he's disappointed by the cooperation of the government of Sudan , he says publicly that there is ongoing obstruction of his capacity to observe events on the ground. That will be significant. ANDREW NATSIOS: I will be going with Secretary Powell on the trip, so I will be with him in Darfur, I will be with him in Khartoum . AID has a mission in Khartoum or an office in Khartoum, and one of the most respected relief managers, Kate Farnsworth, is running it. She's been through this many times before. And we have a staff of 14 people who have just been deployed out there, and we're sending more staff in to help organize this relief effort and to get the roadblocks out of the way. RAY SUAREZ: Andrew Natsios, Dr. Leaning, thank you both. JENNIFER LEANING: Thank you very much |